The chicken issue in Glendale is still not settled. I suspect I may be on council when this issue is finally brought forward. But right now I am not and I can share some thoughts. If you look at my informal poll to the left of this column you will see that half the respondents don’t want chickens and half do want chickens.
This issue should never have been. It started as a neighbor dispute. From all that I have heard they were good neighbors and got along for years. Something triggered animosity (not the chickens) between them and chickens became a means of redress. One of the aggrieved parties went to his or her councilmember to complain. It could have been handled by the councilmember urging both neighbors to participate in mediation or working with them one-on-one. Instead the councilmember brought it forward during Council Items of Special Interest asking for exploration of and discussion of an ordinance to allow chickens.
It has consumed hundreds of hours of staff time and cost you, the taxpayer, thousands of dollars in terms of employee salaries to handle this issue. For years residents have silently had chickens throughout this city…some on large lot property, some on smaller lot property…and there was peace. It was a non-issue. Now we have warfare and it’s the north versus the south all over again. If this hadn’t turned into such a public and divisive issue people all over Glendale would have continued to quietly maintain chickens and no one would have cared. It would have continued to fly under the radar.
Generally north Glendale residents do not want chickens. It’s a NIMBY situation and they believe it will devalue their property. Whether it actually devalues property or not, it is still a matter of perception and therefore a valid consideration. The anti-chicken charge is being guided behind the scenes by former Mayor Scruggs. The public face of anti-chickens in north Glendale is Penny Knochenhauer and Michele Tennyson, her friends.
Now, I may be wrong but I don’t think so…99% of Arrowhead is residential and those neighborhoods are controlled by HOAs. Northern Glendale doesn’t have and will not have a problem with chickens ever…because their HOA regulations mandate whether or not they would be allowed. South Glendale residents appear to be more tolerant and are willing to accept chickens. Many south Glendale chicken proponents already have them and appear to be living in peace with their neighbors. So what do we do now? The staff manpower and expense to resolve this issue is becoming ridiculous. A speedy decision is required. Compromise may be in order. What could a compromise look like?
· It doesn’t seem appropriate that there be chickens on small lot residential properties. Expanding permissible zoning districts to R1-8, (8,000 square foot lots) could be considered. Right now the smallest zoning district that allows chickens is R1-12 (12,000 square foot lots). This compromise would expand allowable zoning districts by adding R1-10 and R1-8. Properties smaller than that (R1-7, R1-6 and R1-4) could cause potential problems and don’t seem to be appropriate candidates for chickens.
· Many Valley cities have restrictions on the number of chickens allowed. It seems reasonable to allow one chicken per every 1,000 square feet. On an 8,000 square foot property that would allow for 8 chickens…that’s a lot of eggs!
· Another component of compromise should include setbacks, a restriction seen in other Valley cities. A setback of 20 feet from any residence (including chicken owner’s home) and 20 foot side and rear yard setbacks to protect adjacent neighbors seem to be in order.
· Lastly a public acknowledgement in city language that recognizes that HOA regulations on this issue supersede any city codes is vital. This stipulation allows self-determination of the chicken issue in a vast number of neighborhoods in Glendale. It seems reasonable that neighbors decide what is in their best interest.
· Roosters are prohibited and will continue to be prohibited in nearly all zoning districts.
You know a compromise has worked if those who are in favor are angry and those who are against are angry. This compromise would probably evoke just such a response. Those who are anti-chicken will be angry because the city has expanded the allowance to R1-8 properties. Those who are pro-chicken will be upset because there are restrictions. Perfect.
If a majority of city council is unwilling to compromise and it comes down to a straight “yes” or “no” vote and I am on city council, I will have to think about the issue further before I make a final decision.
© Joyce Clark, 2016
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OMG! The world is on fire and Glendale is worried about chickens!!
No matter what the council decided, the issue is now in the forefront of the minds of many residents.
Will we see an increase in the number of “chicken” complaints to the city now?
Who will enforce a new chicken ordinance? Code compliance? They don’t do anything now. The police? I’d rather have them available for emergencies and serious crimes.
It’s amazing how much trouble and how much waste of taxpayer money can be caused by one short-sighted council member .
Who was the council member? I think we deserve to know who caused this mess.
What a waste of time and money. Council has so many other important matters to take care of. We have five chickens and love the fresh eggs so tell council to get over it and be more productive. They are better to have than dogs, cats you name it. No more scorpions or bugs
We have already lost too many freedoms in this country so don’t try to take our chickens not happening. Our street on Cavalier has animals and chickens and we are all happy living here without stupid HOA rules. We have our trailers and RV’s as well. The best neighborhood in Glendale.
Ms.. Clark:
The points you reinforce in your latest blog are refreshing and on point. Council has expended a whole lot of time and taxpayer money on a somewhat frivolous matter. The fact you recognize a possible solution and provide valid suggestions that could resolve the perceived problem is both positive and encouraging. Nobody at this point has displayed the courage or willingness to move in the compromise direction.
It appears the way the proposed change is currently being presented, it becomes a yes or no vote. The question Council is considering is to leave the ordinances as they are or change them to include all residential properties within the city, period. Based on the presentation from the Planning Department the citizens of Glendale have determined where they stand on this issue. I suspect they reached that decision by reviewing the facts and the effect this proposed change would have on their quality of life, not what particular individual is also on their side.
Hopefully the Council will arrive at a decision that is beneficial to the vast majority of the residents of the City of Glendale.
FYI Mr. Daily: The Councilmember that is championing this item of special interest is Mr. Bart Turner representing the Barrel District.
Jack Martino
Thank you sir. I appreciate the information!
You are absolutely right…
1. It was something that should have been resolved through some other means other than wasting taxpayer dollars! Re-zoning should ALWAYS be a last resort. Mediation would have been a great way toward an amicable resolution.
2. HOAs would normally be opposed to this in their neighborhoods, so adding this stipulation would help.
Thank you for putting so much thought and analysis into every issue! We will be a better informed community because of your thoughtful approach.
If I had known this would get as bad as it had I would have denied having chickens to code and continued to do as we had done. Harboring illegal chickens. We would have moved them, but our knee jerk reaction was to fight and do what could be done.
At the time we felt deceived by a neighbor whose children I used to babysit and a neighbor that my husband had gone over to see how she was doing if we hadn’t seen her in awhile, help move furniture, check this or that for, sharpen lawn mower blades, when she called and asked for my husband to look at something he was over there, you get the picture. We shared our garden veggies with her and even shared our eggs with her, which she claims to have received salmonella poisoning from, basic good handling would have prevented that if it truly was our eggs. If she had a concern with the chickens and brought it to our attention we did everything we could to remedy the situation. I’m not saying we are innocent in this, as far as we knew we were good neighbors not 3 days prior to us being coded by husband brought her fresh eggs and veggies. This dispute came out of nowhere, we were completely blindsided.
I knew where this was going, we would be denied a variance to have chickens, I knew the planning department would continue to deny our request. They had already given us the interpretation and I knew the only way a change was possible was to take this to council. This issue has been asked about at least 4 times in the last 6 years, by residents and was continually denied by staff. This is the first time it was brought to council in those 6 years.
There was no way we were going to be able to be a family that had illegal chickens because we were already on the city radar. Our neighbor would have continued to complain about the smell no matter how many fly traps she had hanging from her patio, not realizing that was the smell she was smelling. Our chickens did not smell, we raked their yard regularly because we wanted healthy girls and didn’t want them living in filth, it’s called good animal husbandry. We also feed our girls a bit in the morning and a bit at night just to make sure no wild birds would hang around, at her request, and making sure that all of their good was gone before leaving them.
Now I guess our chickens brought in roof rats, but it couldn’t possibly be the 3 citrus trees she has in her backyard that she fails to trim and only recently started making sure her citrus was picked all off of.
I’m not sorry that this is in the process of being reviewed, what I am sorry about is the cost it has cost the city, I don’t know that figure, do you Joyce?
I’m sorry for anyone who has been turned in by their neighbors who were also harboring illegal chickens.
I would say 1 chicken per 1,000 sq. ft. is a good compromise. I am completely willing to compromise, as I believe other chicken proponents are. As far as set backs, if 20 ft., is that from neighbors patio or the fence line? Some yards won’t allow for a 20 ft set back from fence. I feel that if the chickens are in my backyard there should not be a required a set back from our own house.
Thanks for continuing this dialogue Joyce, it has turned into something very divisive in Glendale. Constructive dialogue and compromise are needed in order for this to be resolved in a fair manner for all city of Glendale residents, no matter what side of the fence you are on with this issue.
Yes it has been a waste of time and money and wouldn’t have been had the Council had the guts and intelligence to say no. Who wants chickens right over the wall from your windows. We had them in our last location. Geez…for all you city folks, they are very loud when egging no matter what the feed store owner declares. He’s not honest on that comment. Can hear them an acre away. They are filthy , spread disease, and draw rats, raccoons, flies coyotes, large birds. This isn’t a fight just to lecture and fight. It’s a fight to protect our home values. If you want chickens, move to the country. Use your common sense. If buyers are looking for a home and discovered chickens next door, do you think it would be a good investment. Hell no!
When they lay an egg and are “egging” as you put it, they are still lower in decibels than a dog barking.
Joyce! I sincerely appreciate you taking the opportunity to look at a compromise. I, too, am floored at what this has turned into. I would ask that you broaden the compromise to the one hen per square foot you mention. When simply going by Zoning District, aka property size, that does not take into account the actual yard space that a homeowner has. I am on a relatively small lot but am able to keep my chickens and chicken coop (yes I am harboring chickens illegally in glendale) far enough away from neighbors, ensuring they are not intrusive.
Joyce, I appreciate your reasonable and rational commentary. Yes, there is room for compromise. This musn’t be a yes or no, all or nothing issue.
The HOA issue, that has been evident all along, but no one seems to listen or get that one. It’s like they keep running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
Restrictions, regulations, are fine. As you mentioned, there are boilerplates for this in other cities. This is commonsense courtesy.
Where I do differ is in suggesting the issue has been a drain on fiscal time and resources. It’s the planning commission who belabored this entire process by showing up at meetings not having done their research. Pro or con, show up prepared. Secondly, the issue IS bigger than chickens. Homeowners want to invest in raising chickens, having gardens, and embracing ecologically and environmentally sound principles that increase sustainability. This should be a movement the city embraces, along with its recycling efforts, reducing carbon emissions, light rail proposals, and drought adaptive landscapjng.
I also differ on property restrictions which zero out some homeowners from having even a handful of chickens, say two or three, max. Is there a limit on dog or cat ownership? Is there a limit on exotic bird ownership? Seems inconsistent. Rather, allow for smaller increments based on property sizes. I think the fear mongering that the city will be overrun with chickens is hysterical hand wringing. Can anyone show this has happened in Phoenix, Tempe, or Mesa? Where’s the evidence of this happening? Do we have chicken hoarders, necessitating calls to animal control?
Finally, there’s been angry rhetoric on both sides. It’s sad that citizens can’t engage in civil discourse. I distance myself from those who can’t put forward intelligent, reasoned, diplomatic, passionate arguments in a public forum, whether in live meetings or on social media.
Thank you for your willingness to consider this issue and communicate your thoughts on it.
I feel that compromise is certainly a great approach (and I wish both sides would come to the table this way), but I think the terms of the compromise need to be researched a little more before being set. As was mentioned above, most of the wasted time in this issue with the City seems to be because no one has done their homework! Have staff visited coops in Glendale or surrounding areas? Have they researched the “loudness factor” where chickens purportedly produce clucks and such of less decibels than dogs (oh, and only once a day – but not every day – for 15 minutes or so…not four hours like some dogs in my neighborhood). Do they know how much space is needed for X-many chickens? Good ways to keep them confined and out of the neighbor’s yard, to address those kinds of concerns? Not from what I’ve heard from those that attended the meetings thus far. This is important stuff!
I keep seeing pretty arbitrary determinations of how much space is needed; chickens do NOT need to take up a lot of space. While keeping chickens restricted to R1-8 and above seems reasonable, I know our first house in Glendale in R1-6 had a HUGE yard that could have easily kept a chicken coop 20 feet from the neighbor’s residence or patio (heck, WAY more distance than that!). That house was on an approx. 7,500 SF lot. But had tons of room in the backyard. Remember, R1-6 in a PAD doesn’t necessarily mean all lots are 6,000 SF. I agree R1-4 is a bit tiny, but again, we should use lot size and not zoning as the determining factor. What’s a good minimum size? 6,000 SF? 5,000 SF? Sounds like someone needs to check that out. Visit a few coop setups and SEE how much room they really take (remember, they don’t have to free range!).
I also don’t think the setback restrictions as stated above make sense. Maybe restricting on a side yard, but why on the rear of the yard or distance to my own home? What if the home doesn’t have a neighbor on one side? Or backs up to acreage, retail or some other use? Is there still a setback requirement there? I think restrictions on how close the chicken enclosure can be to a neighboring home or patio structure is enough of a restriction. My dog run could be right next to my fence line and be WAY more of a nuisance than a chicken coop. Instead of this type of restriction, maybe use the distance to the neighboring home/patio first, and then state that any structures (coop or run) above 6′ tall (i.e., above most folks’ block wall) cannot be closer than 20′ to the side yard. Just throwing out ideas.
As for quantities of birds, I think the limit as stated is very fair – and yes, base it on lot size. But for those that only expect someone to have 2-3 chickens, they don’t know much about them. Besides the fact that they are social animals that interact with and watch out for each other, most types of hens available for the homeowner also don’t lay daily. Many only lay 4-5 days a week. So three chickens doesn’t mean 21 eggs a week. It’s more like a dozen! A family of four can easily go through a dozen eggs at breakfast. And then in winter egg production it drops even less as the light diminishes.
I’ve seen quite a few coop setups, none of which were nasty. Are there some like that out there? Most likely. But anyone that has experienced that first hand, please know that those were the exceptions and not the rule. Anyone conforming to proper animal husbandry should be taking care of their coop WEEKLY, in one way or another, so it doesn’t become a nuisance. Not even chicken keepers want that in their own backyard! Oh, and YES…some hens make a bit of a ruckus when “egging”…but others are totally silent. So if a particular hen is a loudmouth, a simple comment to your neighbor saying “Hey, Bertha is really loud…would you consider rehoming her?” could be handled that easily. And if the dispute gets referred to code compliance? Well, then I guess Bertha moves to the country! I’d rather have some chickens than no chickens, and if Bertha is a trouble maker…there are lots of other hens out there! (And I agree totally on the no-rooster thing!).
All the other cities in the metro area have them, and as Dr. Decker noted above, none of them have imploded or have had issues with allowing them. Major cities all around the US where you’d think “Well, certainly THEY don’t allow chickens”…DO. Property values haven’t dropped. Homes haven’t stopped selling. Disease and vermin aren’t rampant. New York, Portland, Chicago, Boulder…all allow backyard hens. And they are doing just fine. And cities both local and across the US deal with deadbeat chicken owners just like any other ordinance violation.
Can we not just do the same?
Joyce, as I brought up at the Planning Department’s community meeting, and staff confirmed, there are no number restrictions on any other type of pet animal in the City of Glendale. I can own and breed as many exotic birds, dogs, cats, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, quail, ferrets, etc… as I want as long as I do not create a nuisance to my neighbors. I think chickens should be treated exactly the same as any other pet.
If limits must be set I don’t agree with using zoning categories as the basis as this arbitrarily excludes people from owning a pet based on where they live. If limits must be set (and I don’t think they should be) something like 1 animal per 1000 sqft of lot size is more appropriate, as it still gives everyone the ability to have them as pets.
I’m fine with property line setbacks, but if we’re going to do that for chickens shouldn’t we do it for dogs as well? Dogs are noisier and smellier than chickens.
I don’t agree with setbacks from the owner’s home – that’s a decision for the homeowner and doesn’t affect any neighbors – my thought is that this is just another idea to further limit people who want to own chickens.
The subject of HOA’s is a distraction and no special language is needed to protect them. Most HOAs prohibit poultry anyway. HOA’s also have the ability to address neighborhood issues and create rules to regulate areas of neighborhood interest. HOA’s have always been more restrictive than city code – that is their role.
I’m also not too disturbed by the time and effort spent by city staff on this issue as this is their job after all. My only real concern is they do a thorough job.
I’m encouraged that one council member (Bart Turner?) had the courage to publicly address something brought to his attention by a constituent and ask for a public discussion on the matter. Isn’t that a part of a councilmember’s job? I know that you’ve done that in the past for our district.
I think it’s quite ironic that Coop Dreams is hosting a Coop Camp http://abcsportscamps.com/coopdreams/info/23994 2/17-19 at Saguaro Ranch Park. I wonder if they realize they are hosting their event at one of the only three cities in the valley to prohibit residential chickens.
breed as many exotic birds, dogs, cats, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, quail, ferrets, etc… as I want as long as I do not create a nuisance to my neighbors. I think chickens should be treated exactly the same as any other pet. Does that mean when the chickens are allowed back into our neighborhoods can I breed weasels to accommodate the pet spirit?
Linda – the answer to your question is there is no need to wait for chickens to be allowed! You can already breed weasels as pets in your back yard with NO RESTRICTIONS, as long as they do not create a nuisance to your neighbors. Your HOA may determine otherwise, but the City of Glendale does not restrict them. Planning Dept staff clearly stated this at the first Planning Dept. meeting in Council chambers when I asked them. You were present for this meeting.
thanks Mike, You really clear so much up for me….
Reading all the comments made me think of Black Friday. Everyone pushing, screaming, and grabbing for the bargain… compromise. Are we done yet?
Greetings Folks:
It appears Joyce Clark’s blog has created some passionate discussion. This is positive as some of the ideas presented/promoted are appropriate. These items are certainly germane and important to the overall conversation. Unfortunately individuals seem to have conveniently skewed the original proposal presented at the informal neighborhood meeting of August 17, 2016.
While the staff presentation that evening did include an “unlimited number” of chickens there was no mention of setbacks or other possible restrictions that would be included in the proposed change. Our leaders attempted to sell the public “change” without full disclosure and we end up here.
Based on the original material presented, reasonable individuals could therefore conclude the two questions being discussed/considered are:
Leave the current ordinances as they are;
Expand the current ordinances to allow chickens in all residential neighborhoods.
No mention of expanding/modifying the current ordinances to include setbacks or even a specific number of chickens. No solicitation of suggestions from interested parties in a concerted effort to develop a workable resolution that recognizes each side. It is interesting to note one of the question asked on the comment card actually has nothing to do with the proposed ordinance change. ( I oppose chickens in Glendale. While the process requires the gathering of public input, the final decision lies in the hands of our seven member elected Council.
For those folks contributing to misinformation on this proposed change:
Chickens are allowed in Glendale on appropriately zoned parcels of land and if you are interested those parcels number 2,959. The proposed change, if adopted, would add an additional 43,721 parcels to that number. Yes, 43,721 is correct and these numbers were provided by the Planning Department.
It is generally accepted that 70 -75 % of residential neighborhoods in Glendale have HOA’s. While some CC&R’s contain specific language relating to chickens, many do not. And what about the residents not part of an HOA, that depend on the communities’ ordinances and enforcement by Code Compliance? Is there a suggestion, these individuals simply be ignored and somehow don’t count?
The current ordinances have been in place since 1993 (23 years) and reviewed in 2011 with no recommended change. The system apparently has served the community as intended. What economic benefit or additional quality of life value will the majority of citizens realize, if this proposed change is adopted?
Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Jack Martino
I have been a resident of Glendale for a little over 1 year, to date. I like this city, and I like the Ocotillo district, despite it being one of, if not THE most impoverished district in the city. I am in favor of allowing chickens in single-family residential properties within the city.
I have been following this issue, and have been participating as much as my time allows. So far, it seems that this issue has been brought to us without much guidance, and has been painted as a “yes” or “no” issue by anyone opposing chickens. Honestly, Jack Martino might be the only fair voice coming from people that are against allowing chickens, and I agree more or less with the numbers he provides, with some discrepancy.
I hear a lot of people that oppose chickens use the “move somewhere else if you want chickens so badly” rhetoric. For most, if not all of use, that is all but impossible, considering that owns a home is fully vested in it, and have focused their careers, their families, their relationships, and their livelihoods around their homes. Simply moving for the sake of being allowed to own chickens seems absurd to me, especially considering how many other cities in the valley have moved in favor of providing some means of compromise. I would imagine that those cities (Phoenix, Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert, etc) didn’t make the decision carelessly, and that they likely saw some benefit to allowing chickens within residential neighborhoods. Please consider that there are more valley cities that support chicken ownership than there are that don’t, and consider how Glendale’s policies may be outdated in contrast.
Also, I find it more than fair that our city is examining this issue. City employees are suppose to represent their citizens, and for those that currently own or would like to own chickens, this is a viable issue, and definitely not a waste of city resources. My lack of interest in athletics could just as easily allow me to consider the stadium a tragic waste of tax revenue, and the hard dollar difference between researching chickens and supporting the stadium is astronomical. I’m not entirely sure, but I think that our city’s residents have the right to request information regarding the city’s use of their budget. I’m almost certain that you could find a marginally greater waste of money within our city’s books.
As for how it would effect 43,721 parcels, that number could be drastically effected based on the zoning amendment would be worded. Setback restrictions, neighbor consent, and parcel size requirements could drastically affect that number. I think setback restrictions, such as requiring the owner to keep their chickens in an enclosure that is no less than 80 ft away from a neighboring residential dwelling, or perhaps no less than 40 ft away from a neighboring property boundary, unless given written consent by that neighbor (similarly to Phoenix’s ordinance) would be reasonable. It seems like it would be the best way to promote cooperation between neighbors.
In addition to setback requirements, I feel that it would be fair to limit the amount of chickens that could be kept on a property, using sq. footage of the lot size as a guideline. I would propose allowing 1 chicken per every 1000-1500 sq. ft. On top of that, there could be a minimum lot size requirement, which would likely be a moot point if there were setback restrictions, but could nonetheless be helpful on reducing the number of parcels affected by the zoning amendment.
If it’s true that 70-75% percent of single-family residential properties in Glendale are within HOAs, then I would urge those HOAs to update their CC&Rs. If their residents favor disallowing chickens, then it shouldn’t be too difficult to update those CC&Rs, especially if property values and quality of living are concerns. That’s what HOA’s are for, and considering how much people within HOAs pay for their association’s moderation, I’d expect that they should be readily accountable for updating their CC&Rs to suit their residents’ needs.
There’s no real way to say how deep the impact of allowing chickens within single-family residential properties would be. There’s no guarantee that it wouldn’t affect property values (though, there’s a pretty heavy lack of evidence supporting that concern). I doubt that it pose a greater health risk, because salmonella contamination generally requires coming into direct contact with the poultry. The biggest concerns seem to be noise, odor, and debris (feathers), all of which would be readily contested by a variety of other things that are legally allowed within our city.
The greatest thing we’d get out of this would be a small, simple freedom. Not everyone would be interested in applying that freedom, but it would exist nonetheless. I, for one, and in favor of having more freedoms rather than fewer.
“Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.” – Abraham Lincoln
Everyone has been blessed with the opportunity to find a channel to voice their concerns and we all must recognize this gift came from Joyce Clark’s blog to trust us and being willing to listen to our diverse opinions. Within our human capacity, we must agree, we all have expanded our knowledge and personal growth.
With that note, I want to share a small tip of my education on what I’ve learned about raising chickens.
Disease :
Histoplasmosis is a fungus in the soil from bird droppings. Person cleaning out the coop could be exposed to this fungus and may cause loss of body parts loss due to the infected area (i. e . eyes)
Salmonella : Oct. 2016, CDC (Center of Disease Control) Report a national 50% increase of Salmonella outbreak across the entire country. Tracked source came from backyard chicken farming. This did not count the victims who did not seek medical treatment , which went undocumented. Humans get sick from handling an infected chick or chicken. It takes a Veterinarian to diagnoses the infected chicken.
Aspergillosis: is a fungal pneumonia that can be spread to humans through infected chickens.
Fowl Pox: is transmitted to chickens by mosquitoes- while not known to be spread to humans, having chickens could lead to more mosquitoes on your property.
Enterococcus faecalis is spread through chicken feces that can cause urinary tract infections, meningitis or heart value issues in humans.
Avian Flu: Recently scientist have concluded wild birds are carriers of this virus and the wild bird droppings searching for chicken feed leave their infected droppings on chicken coops and surrounding yards, causing potential harm to humans. If there is an outbreak, will BYCF surrender their pet chickens?
Fleas and mites: also infect chickens and those could be transported to outdoor dogs or cats and into our homes. There is a fear of a transmitted disease becoming antibiotic resistant complicating the treatment options for humans.
People wishing to raise chickens as backyard pets for egg production may not have the experience necessary to diagnose or treat these diseases that affect chickens. Neighbors will be relying on the chicken owners to keep their flock disease free. Who is going to monitor that they thoroughly clean the coop, buy vaccinated chicks, and maintain a healthy flock? What about the people who don’t want to vaccinate their chicks? How will they dispose of chicken waste and carcasses?
Predators: Mother nature created a natural order in the animal kingdom. Attraction for chickens is coyotes, hawks, feral cats, snakes, rats, and weasels.
Property Value: Property values are based on not only how your house looks and smell, but also on your neighbor’s property. The chicken coop may not be noticeable from the front of the house, but it will certainly show up if an aerial picture is looked up by a prospective buyer. There is no way to make a chicken coop unsightly or odor-free. Will there be restrictions for a chicken coop?
Income Source: People may say initially that they want chickens for pets and for their own egg consumption. Yet, the rumor is eight chickens per household for a family of four .
Calculations of eggs in one week : 8 chickens x 2 eggs x 7days = 112 eggs a week…WOW
Farmers Market here we come with our unregulated eggs, free untaxable income ….
Additional concerns:
Egg production- hens can live for 8 to 10 years. However, their egg production diminishes significantly after the first year or two. What will owners do with their non-producing hens as they age?
Unwanted chickens- What happens after they get their chickens and decide they are not cut out to be farmers? Will the animals shelter accept them? The growing trend of raising backyard chickens in urban settings is backfiring, critics say, as disillusioned city dwellers dump unwanted fowl on animal shelters and sanctuaries.
Hundreds of chickens, sometimes dozens at a time, are being abandoned each year at the nation’s shelters from California to New York as some hipster farmers discover that hens lay eggs for two years, but can live for a good decade longer, and that actually raising the birds can be noisy, messy, labor-intensive and expensive.
Chicken feces: While this sounds like a nice organic thing to do raising chickens, a true farmer will attest that they are dirty, smelly, noisy, and a potential health hazard. The chicken poop is not like dog or cat poop, in that it splats on the ground and is impossible to pick up. So over time the yards get dirtier, and worse smelling until it carries over to the neighbors. Also, chicken poop harbors bacteria and virus, rats can smell chicken feces three miles away and rats need the protein provided from chicken feces, which shows Mother Nature has a unique system for taking care of her creatures.
Knowledge: Will the City of Glendale require the owners to register and take a poultry farming course to help them recognize symptoms of diseased, injured or parasitic infections in their flock?
Euthanizing- How will they euthanize and dispose of sick chickens?
Personal testimony:
Once this chicken ordinance passes, City of Glendale will start receiving many complaints and this will cause serious neighborhood issues.
Thank you for your response, LMM. I agree with your sentiments on how blessed we are for the opportunity for discussion provided by this blog. I have read the entirety of your response, and appreciate your input. There are a few points that I would disagree with, though. I’ll do my best to explain and clarify below, and also to help address some of your concerns. I am not an expert, but I have been researching this for the last 3 years due to personal interest, and have personally visited households that have chickens in their backyards.
Prefix:
This blog prevents me from using a lot of URLs because of spam filtering. I will do my best to cite sources, and you should be able to search Google for anything cited within quotes to confirm the information.
Regarding disease,
Salmonella: There will always be some risks. I have read the CDC report that indicated a 50% increase in salmonella cases this year. Percentages can be very misleading in a frightening way. For instance, there are 440% more cases of HIV infection per year than there are cases of salmonella poisoning. The number 3 is 50% greater than 2.
“As of September 26, 2016, 895 people infected with the outbreak strains of Salmonella were reported from 48 states.” – CDC
“In 2015, 39,513 people were diagnosed with HIV infection in the United States.” – CDC
My insinuation is that despite how many claims to concern there are regarding disease risks associated with backyard chicken farming in residential areas, human-based contagion is a far greater threat. Children are much more likely to contract illness through contact with other children through schools, especially in cases where parents arbitrarily decide not to vaccinate their kids.
Additionally, there are other diseases that are carried by dogs and cats that could be just as severe, such as toxoplasmosis.
“Toxoplasmosis is considered to be a leading cause of death attributed to foodborne illness in the United States. More than 60 million men, women, and children in the U.S. carry the Toxoplasma parasite, but very few have symptoms because the immune system usually keeps the parasite from causing illness.
However, women newly infected with Toxoplasma during pregnancy and anyone with a compromised immune system should be aware that toxoplasmosis can have severe consequences.
Toxoplasmosis is considered one of the Neglected Parasitic Infections, a group of five parasitic diseases that have been targeted by CDC for public health action.” – CDC
The idea I’m trying to convey is that discrimination against backyard chickens due to disease concerns seems, to me, to be a negligible point, when all other things (i.e., dogs, cats, FDA approved poultry at the grocery store, and children) are considered. My research would indicate that there is roughly just as much hazard to owning a dog or a cat as there is to owning chickens.
I think the biggest thing the CDC was trying to do was encourage education, and better handling practices.
Likewise…
Aspergillosis: not exclusive to chickens. “The majority of cases occur in people with underlying illnesses such as tuberculosis or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), but with otherwise healthy immune systems.” – Wikipedia
Fowl Pox: as you said, not known to be spread to humans. I don’t understand how that correlates to an increase of mosquitos on your property. Plants and irrigation are a greater promoter of mosquito populations. For all we know, a percentage of mosquitoes could be due to stagnant outdoor dog water bowls.
Enterococcus Faecalis: not exclusive to chickens. Reviewing Enterococcus Faecalis on Wikipedia made no mention whatsoever regarding chicken, poultry, or fowl.
Avian Flu: This is probably the biggest concern in the list. I read an article titled “Backyard Chickens and Bird Flu: How to Spot It and Why It Matters” that provides more information regarding this issue.
In summary, avian flu isn’t very prominent, and would likely be introduced to an area by migratory waterfowl. While waterfowl aren’t affected by it, they can pass it on through feces. If the outbreak was bad enough, I think the government has the authority to get forcibly involved. That falls under the Public Health Service Act, and I’ll leave it to whoever’s reading to do more research on that.
Even so, in contrast, there’s other things that could just as easily get us sick. The likelihood of an Avian Flu outbreak as the result of allowing backyard chickens seems very minimal. If it were all that likely to happen, I’m sure it would have already affected Phoenix, Scottsdale, Mesa, Tempe, or Gilbert backyard chicken owners.
Fleas and mites: It’s more likely that a stray cat would introduce fleas and mites into our properties. Stray cats are actually protected in the valley (as in you can’t trap and euthanize them). If chickens are confined to a run/coop, how would they bring fleas/mites into their neighboring properties?
Also, chickens have a tendency to eat any bugs they can see. They can get mites and fleas, but keeping your coop/run clean and using hardwood ash within your dust bath for your chickens will reduce/remove risk of fleas and mites to your flock, which would reduce/remove risk of fleas and mites to your other animals.
Even after considering the hygiene of your flock, there’s things anti-flea and anti-mite measures you could apply directly to your home, and your dogs/cats.
As for antibiotic resistance, human antibiotic consumption is trickling downstream and exposing nature to it, which is probably changing the landscape of disease more than having a backyard chicken flock would.
Experience in maintaining a flock: I agree, not everyone will have the experience to maintain an ideal flock. Part of this lack of education is due to the lack of availability and prominence of chicken keeping in our culture. We’ve lost the knowledge because we haven’t maintained it. At least allowing chickens would give us the chance to take back some of that knowledge. If chickens were as popular as dogs or cats, its likely that there would be more public awareness into how a flock should be kept. It stands to reason that anyone interested in chickens would have access to education. There will, however, always be irresponsible people. These same irresponsible people are endowed with the rights to legally drive cars and reproduce. Consider that.
Predators: I appreciate your sentiment on mother nature’s natural order of things, but I don’t think you’re considering the rest of the food chain. Bobcats, coyotes, and mountain lions are all attracted to things that are already in our cities, like stray dogs, stray cats, birds, and mice. There’s also a great deal of food-based garbage within our cities, which attracts anything ranging from pigeons to coyotes.
Snakes, rats, weasels, mice, feral cats, stray dogs, hawks, etc. are already here. I saw a hawk eating a dead pigeon while I was walking through my old neighborhood in East Mesa on the way home from the light rail. I’ve seen snakes scurry across lawns. Feral cats have been pooping in my chicken-free backyards my entire life.
All things considered, I really can’t find any evidence that supports the fear that predatory animals or pests would increase as a result of allowing backyard chickens into residential neighborhoods, and doubt that any increase has been noticed in any other cities in the Phoenix valley area that have allowed chickens to residents.
Property Value:
I understand that property values are based on the look and smell of your neighborhood, in general. Beyond the quality of your house, your neighborhood will influence the value of your property to a pretty large degree. I’ve gone through two home appraisals for my property over the last year.
As it stands, there are privacy laws regarding what can and cannot be disclosed in regard to a person’s back yard. It’s something a homeowner could sue over. Arial pictures aren’t exactly kept as up-to-date as you might think. You could look up your own property on Google maps to see how much time might have passed before the last time one of their satellites has passed over your house.
For instance, my immediate neighbors have a really junky back yard. To illustrate this, think rusty truck on cinderblocks, a dried out above-ground swimming pool filled with debris, a pile of rusty patio furniture, and that’s not even the half of it. I’m pretty sure that’s where a lot of the black widow spiders and mice have been coming from. For as ridiculous as this might sound, consider how legal it is.
As for your opinion on making a chicken coop that is unsightly or odor free… I have to disagree with you a great deal. Aesthetics are a pretty personal thing, but doing a quick search on Google images would show how decorative chicken coops can be. Just type in “chicken coops” and the first 10 or so images (that aren’t in the sponsored section) will show bright colors and decorative finishes. It really depends on what you consider unsightly, but some of those coop designs, to me, are pretty impressive and look a great deal like children’s playhouses.
[as an aside – sorry if the following responses seem short or less thoughtful, but my computer tried to shutdown while I was finishing this and I was only able to recover my responses up to this point. I’m really trying to be thoughtful with my responses, but computers are the devil, and I’ve already put over a half an hour into this.]
Income source: Your math is kinda wrong here. Chickens don’t lay 2 eggs every day. 3-5 is the target for production breeds, like orpingtons, rhode island reds, etc. So, to fix the equation…
8 chickens x 3-5 eggs x 1 week = 24-40 eggs every week
After considering the cost of feed, coop, enclosure, lighting, bedding, chickens, and so forth, 24-40 eggs per week doesn’t exactly represent a meaningful source of revenue. I could probably eat that many eggs (though I’d have to get creative with recipes)
Egg production and unwanted chickens: Some people might even be willing to use their older hens for meat. I would. I eat chicken, and personally, I’d feel better about eating a creature I personally cared for, versus eating meat from a heartless industrial farm. Search YouTube for undercover farm footage. They basically just toss chicks into a grinder if they are male. It’s kinda grotesque. At least my chickens would have had the opportunity to see the sky. But that’s just me. Not everyone feels the same way.
As for unwanted chickens, there are rehoming and rescue options.
Also, consider how unwanted dogs/cats are treated. Should they be outlawed as well based on the irresponsible behavior of some hipsters?
Chicken feces: are rich in nitrogen, and easier to compost than dog/cat feces. Actually, people/stores sell chicken manure. It has actual value, something like 75¢ per pound. I’d love to have chicken manure to compost and add to my vegetable garden.
I have several cats and a dog, none of which provide me with eggs or useful waste.
Actually, I got my great pyrenees puppy from a resident of north Phoenix. They had over 20 chickens, and I really don’t think the smell of their coop and enclosure was bad at all. If you’re talking about a “real farmer” with a flock of hundreds of hens, then yeah… of course they’ll be dirty and stink. Any commercial for-profit farming operation stinks. I’ve met a lot more people that own less than 20 chickens that have either told me or literally shown me that their flocks don’t produce enough odor to offend my senses any more than my puppy’s droppings.
As for rats, they’re just as attracted to garbage and fruit trees. It all boils down to hygiene and sanitation, and I don’t see why chickens should be treated as contraband while so many other, dirtier, stinkier, noisier things exist legally.
Knowledge: is everyone’s individual responsibility. It’s not like there is any knowledge requirement for dogs and cats governed by the city. Considering the comparisons between hazard between dogs, cats, and chickens, I don’t feel that chickens should require any more excessive enforcement than dogs or cats.
Euthanizing: euthanization and disposal of chickens could be treated the same way for chickens as it is for dogs and cats.
Lastly, how do you quantify your personal testimony regarding the complaints? I’ve heard that there were more nuisance complains regarding dogs than there were over chickens, and I would expect that the amount of complaints for either or would based on the quantity of either dogs or chickens kept in the city.
I hope that some of this information helps ease your concerns. Yeah, with anything there are problems, but I feel that to limit the liberties of everyone on behalf of the poor actions of a few people is the antithesis of the entire point of our country’s ideal of freedom.
I get that not everyone likes chickens, but denying everyone the opportunity simply based on personal preference seems like it would be selfish. I don’t see why allowing chickens would present any issues that couldn’t be resolved by simply communicating. Ordinance could still dictate that residents be required to maintain their flocks within odor, noise, and aesthetic nuisance limits (I believe almost every ordinance in the valley that allows chickens addresses this). I feel that it all boils down to how the ordinance is written. I hope that our council can help us all compromise on this.
And, again, thank you for your response. I truly believe that the only way we can come together as a community is by cooperating, and communicating, and our collaboration is an important part of that.
Thank you for the well crafted response. I think it went a long way to clear up some of the misconceptions being cultivated by the anti-chicken crowd.
Good reply, Destry. I have done a TON of research on chickens the past two years watching this issue on both a state and city level, waiting to be able to have them, and know people who have chickens both in AZ and in another state. They’re not the “doom and gloom” pet that they’re being made out to be (yes, they can be pets just like your fish or a gerbil – but we’re not asking to redefine what they are in this care). Chickens have personalities, and can learn simple tricks. They have unique vocalizations that mean specific things, and one prominent chicken person has discovered her flock even identified her with a unique call that they only give when they see her coming. A rooster even will keep watch for danger, and call out when he finds a bunch of tasty bugs and call his ladies over to share (we aren’t wanting to keep roosters…the point is chickens are smarter than most folks think). Hens can be kept and contained within a yard and cause less repercussions on the neighborhood that someone’s “legal” outdoor cat that terrorizes the native birds in your backyard and leaves “gifts” of all sorts behind for you to find, or the guy next door who breeds dogs and has his yard set up to keep 5 breeding pairs (think noise & odor).
One of LMM’s concerns is that people won’t know how to take care of them, and disaster will fall. The internet over the past 5 years or so has EXPLODED with information about how to keep backyard chickens. There are chicken-specific magazines, Facebook pages and blogs. How to build a coop. How to keep it clean and odor free. Warm in the winter, and cool in the summer. How to build easy maintenance items, such as waterers that dispense kind of like a gerbil dispenser so there’s never any standing or wasted water (think: NO mosquitoes!). Feeders that keep out the sparrows so feed isn’t wasted either. What to do if your hen DOES get fowl pox or the sniffles. There’s even a chicken “vet” FB page where people around the country can post something that’s not right with their hen and a handful of avian vets provide advice for free. 99% of people who want chickens are going to take excellent care of their flocks, because they put a LOT of money into a coop, feed, supplies, remedies and the care of raising them from chicks.
Chicken keeping is NOT cheap, and on the backyard scale, is NOT a feasible source of revenue. From what I see on one of the AZ FB pages, people give their extra eggs to friends and relatives, and the ones that actually do sell them basically do it to help defray feed costs. A lot of folks feed their birds GMO-free feed (which is VERY expensive). But who will pay $4.00 for a dozen “GMO-free” eggs? I know I won’t! The backyard chicken folks are a small crowd of people that just want to peaceably keep chickens for the fun, the eggs and in some cases the meat. I’m willing to compromise to make sure my future chickens don’t bug my neighbors in any way…why can’t the “no” folks come to the table and agree with some reasonable stuff as well? If we don’t affect YOU, then I don’t understand the concern.
Couple more points. First, for the property values. Why would places like Scottsdale or Tempe allow them if it affects property values? Or bigger cities, like New York, Portland or upscale places like Boulder? Yeah, there may be a few people who don’t want them in their own yard and hope the neighbors don’t have them. But I think most people won’t care. A relative of mine just moved into a new house, and bought it without ever knowing the people behind them had chickens. And she said it wouldn’t have changed her mind about buying the house.
Second, chicken poop. As Destry mentioned, it’s NOT like carnivore poo…it’s the byproduct of mostly plant materials, so the odor at the source is minimal compared to a dog or cat. In AZ’s climate it breaks down very fast and once it’s dry, it has almost no odor at all. It can be added to the compost heap (which I’m sure lots of chicken folks have since many are trying to do the whole “sustainable living” thing). Yeah, if someone didn’t clean their coop regularly (see above point on the backyard chicken keeper’s desire to keep their flock healthy and coop odor free), it will smell. If we lived in a moist climate where it didn’t dry out so fast, it would definitely smell if not cleaned regularly enough. But so does my dog run when my son doesn’t clean it up as often as I ask. Except my own dog run can get really bad when we don’t get enough rain to rinse the urine away. EW. But hey, if your neighbor with chickens isn’t cleaning up…talk to them or report them to code enforcement. As I think I said in a prior post, most people don’t want their own yards to stink, either.
Third, education/registering with the City. While I think this is something the City shouldn’t have to deal with, I’d be happy to take a class on education, in exchange for having them. Personally, I think I’ve learned more online in the past 2 years (and the books I’ve bought) than a 4-hour class could teach me. But hey, you never know! The teacher may have that one bit of wisdom I hadn’t learned yet! As for registration…does that guy in the above sample breeding dogs in his yard have to register or get a permit? No. Do I need a permit to breed macaws in my yard? No. Then why chickens?
Fourth, complaints. People already HAVE chickens now, as was clearly spelled out in the first neighborhood meeting by the guy at Pratt’s. TONS of people. How many complaints does the City get now, and are they “I’m gonna get my neighbor for having chickens!” complaints, or are they truly concerns about noise or odor? Makes you wonder. I can’t blame folks for trying to stay under the radar on what really shouldn’t be such a big deal, but if the complaint was truly due to noise or odor…shame on them. That’s bad animal keeping, and should never have happened. If there really wasn’t anything going on in their yard, and it was just a neighborly vendetta, then that’s a pretty sorry neighbor to turn someone in just to “show them!”. Personally, if I had an issue with a neighbor about a noisy pet, I’d talk to them before reporting them to the city…that’s the neighborly thing to do. Heck, years ago we had a neighbor at whit’s end about “that neighbor” whose tree dumped bags of bright yellow flowers over the fence into their pool each spring, staining the tile yellow and clogging the filters. That was MY tree. They came over one afternoon, explained the issue, we talked about it and worked it out. We took out the tree and planted something else that didn’t cause problems. Cooperation. That’s what we need.
I would really like the “pro” and “con” folks to come to the table, without carrying all their personal baggage with them. Joyce’s points on compromise – some reasonable and some not so much, in my opinion – are a good place to start. Give here, take there…but essentially come up with a plan that allows chickens with reasonable rules, but makes sure it doesn’t infringe on the property rights of those around them. Almost every single city in the Metro area has done this. Why can’t we get there?
Joyce…can’t we get both sides on this issue together in a city-sponsored event to talk about the issues from both perspectives? Not as a yelling match about the pros and cons, but about hearing the “no” folks’ concerns and how the “yes” folks can address them to make everyone win on this. Not a ton of people…maybe a handful from each side. After hearing about the P&Z workshop this week, it sounds like staff still is at a loss on what to regulate on this issue. This group could discuss bullet-pointed items on an agenda of sorts, and talk about how to address them. Discuss City rules that may help with their concerns, without being unreasonably restrictive. For instance, how many chickens IS reasonable based on lot size? Can coops be visible above a fence line? Should there be a setback to the neighbor’s home or patio, and if so, what distance is reasonable? Can they free range in the yard, or must they be in an enclosed run? What is required to make sure MY chickens don’t end up in HIS yard? That kind of thing. The city’s main purpose in hosting this would be to keep tempers and feelings calm, and help both sides have a meaningful dialogue on this. THIS, more than anything, would give City Staff the information they need to make their rules.
We’re all passionate in our opinion…whether for or against on this issue…and while I disagree with many of the facts the “no chickens” folks have been voicing, neither side is really “wrong” about how they PERCEIVE the issue. But I’m positive there IS a way to compromise.
One thing for sure we all should buy stock in Google, without that none of us would have anything worth while say… HIV and Chickens? what a connection….