It has been 18 years and 19 days since the city’s pledge to build the West Branch Library.
You might have noticed that I have not written any blogs for a month…over this holiday season. It seems that preparing a scrumptious Thanksgiving dinner and Christmas got in the way. By the way, I love Amazon. This year, for the first time, I was able to do all of my Christmas shopping online. It is also a time of year when everyone, even governmental agencies, seems to go on hiatus. Everything seems to take a backseat to celebrating the season. I wish everyone a Happy New Year and may it be all that you hope for.
One noteworthy event occurred on December 20, 2015 when the Tohono O’odham (TO) celebrated the grand opening of its Desert Diamond casino in Glendale. The day it opened I happened to be at the Target/Kohl’s shopping center in Peoria directly north of the casino. As I was approaching one of the stores I overheard a conversation between several women. The first pair of women asked the second pair if they had gone to the new casino. The second pair answered with, “Yes, we did. It’s a rip off. We won’t be going there again.” I wanted to ask the second pair some follow up questions but I didn’t want to intrude on what appeared to be a private conversation albeit able to be heard by passersby.
It’s a good time to note that there are still outstanding issues with the casino. First and foremost, although the effort to fast track a vote on the Keeping the Promise Act in Congress failed, it is not a dead issue and will, in the future, come up for that all important vote before Congress.
In the meantime the TO and the State of Arizona (namely the Department of Gaming which regulates the voter approved Gaming Compact of 2002) are still in court. To date the state has not granted a liquor license for the TO facility and it appears that the TO are not likely to obtain one in the near future. In addition the TO have only bingo slot machines (Class II) on site as the state has not approved Class III gaming at the facility. If you are looking for table games such as poker you will be sorely disappointed. Until these issues are resolved legally what you see at the facility is what you get. It’s not very impressive.
Another negative is the attractiveness of the facility itself. It was planned and built as a warehouse but is being used as the site of the temporary casino. It cannot be described as a first class facility and looks as if it were built for its intended purpose, a warehouse. It’s certainly no Talking Stick and the site surrounding the casino has not been landscaped. So if you like looking at dirt, there’s plenty to see.
I, and many others, still remain hopeful a successful congressional vote or a successful legal decision in favor of the state will put the final nail in this casino coffin. For all of those who are waiting for dollars to roll into governmental coffers…forget it. The TO, as with all other tribal gaming facilities, are not required to pay any federal, state, regional or local taxes. It is also important to be mindful that if a traffic accident or any other unsavory event befalls you on the TO’s reservation you are subject to their law and their interpretation of such.
© Joyce Clark, 2016
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I swore I wouldn’t ever comment on this topic again, but couldn’t pass up a chance to comment on your blog in hopes others will voice their thoughts as well. I do respect your opinion and opposition to this project, Joyce, but we will just have to agree to disagree. And, I do appreciate you giving both the pros and cons an opportunity to express their opinions.
As a former casino industry consultant and regulator in Iowa and Illinois, and a supporter of the development of the full West Valley Resort facility, I hope the TO continue to win their legal battles with government and the other tribes. The current facility is, indeed, intended to be the warehouse for the full resort when it is completed. However, It is a far better facility than the temporary “tent casinos” that the other tribes (including Talking Stick) erected and operated for years before building their permanent resorts. How soon we forget!
In response to the comments made that the casino is “a rip-off”…well, what do people expect? It’s GAMBLING! The casino industry thrives on losers, not winners! I suspect the ladies making the comments you overheard would be singing a different tune had they won. Judging by the crowds the casino has drawn every day since opening…most people don’t seem to share their opinion.
This casino will be successful regardless of whether they get their Class 3 license or not. Approximately 80% of casino revenue comes from slot machines and a great deal of Indian gaming across the country is conducted with Class 2 licensing. Most slot machine players cannot tell the difference between Class 2 or 3 slot machines. Casinos can also be very profitable without table games as long as there is sufficient market share…which there is in Phoenix. And, there are a number of Indian gaming facilities across the country that do not even allow alcohol in their casinos…and they are profitable as well.
While it is true that Indian casinos themselves do not pay taxes, they are required by Arizona law to contribute a portion of revenues to the state, and the TO’s will pay an annual amount to the City of Glendale. Additionally, casino employees as well as contractors, vendors and suppliers to the casino do pay taxes. So there is a significant economic benefit to the area, although it would be greater if the casino itself was required to pay taxes.
Commercial gaming is far more lucrative for overall tax revenues, however, Indian gaming is all that Arizona has…Glendale and the West Valley have far more to gain than lose in supporting the complete development of the resort. Arizona’s federal government officials that are fighting this casino wouldn’t even be interested if the tribes lobbying against it hadn’t lined their pockets with campaign contributions.
I understand and respect the arguments against the casino…and I am not even a big proponent of Indian gaming because it is so poorly regulated…but so far those arguments haven’t held any water…and probably won’t in the end. I think I would be far more worried about the empty arena Glendale is about to have when the Coyotes leave…and that is a pretty sure bet!
Don, You are correct in that we agree to disagree. I do appreciate your thoughtful and respectful comments. Thank you for not killing the messenger. There is one correction that needs to be made. All tribes are required to set aside a small portion of their revenue for the benefit of the general public. Those funds are awarded through a grant process to non-profits and governmental agencies such as fire departments. There is never a direct distribution of revenue to a city, county or state.
Sir. I think you have to look at each location as to the effect a casino will have on an area. The location of other valley casinos are not in places that A) Have an economic impact or B) are in an area that can’t withstand the economic impact.
While I agree that the entertainment value to people on the westside is enormous, but at what price? At the expense of whom? The westside is not able to withstand the economic impact as say Scottsdale is. A casino there enhances the area. The one on the westide does the opposite. There is no or very few major shopping, entertainment or resorts on the westside.
Once the hotel is built, it will take away from the other area hotels. Once the casino is fully built out, the money spent there will be money not spent in other local businesses. I think its fair to say the Coyotes may leave Westgate. I think its safe to say that a casino will under all circumstances take away customers from the bars and restaurants of Westgate. If the Coyotes leave, the loss of 600K visitors a year there plus the loss to the casino could have a crippling effect on Westgate.
So, IMO this casino in the long run will have a severe effect on other area businesses………..that I might add provide tax revenue to the city. It is clear that all the major events to the UOP stadium stay away from Glendale for there sponsored events. People may stay in a casino hotel, but will spend time and MONEY in other valley cities.
My last point is that this tribe at the very least was deceitful. In fact, I think they are outright liars. Thats not exactly the kind of people I would want in my neighborhood. Casinos are built to be all INCLUSIVE. They are not designed to share curatomers with other area businesses. Why do you think that when built out they have several restaurants, bars, entertainment, spas besides gambling.
I must respectfully disagree with your point of view in this situation. You and no one else has showed me the economic benefit to the surrounding west valley cities. When you speak of jobs, please balance that out with the jobs that will be lost at area establishments that close or lose business.
I don’t wish to argue with anyone regarding this casino, only present information that is factual and can be verified. I am a gaming proponent, but not necessarily a fan of tribal gaming as it is poorly regulated…but it is all Arizona has.
The opinions you express, you are certainly entitled to, but there is no basis for their accuracy. There are multiple studies, both pro and con, on casino gaming nationwide that can be found by doing simple internet research. Casinos and casino hotels generally do not adversely affect other hotels and businesses in close proximity…in fact…the management of the Renaissance Hotel at Westgate and other businesses there support the casino development.
And, there is actually more retail, hotel and restaurant development in close proximity to the Desert Diamond than there is in Scottsdale to Talking Stick and Casino Arizona.
Whether or not the tribe is/was deceitful is a moot point. Nearly ALL casino developments go through a number of lawsuits and legal wranglings (many times for years)…it is the nature of the beast. I have worked on multiple casino developments, both Native American and commercial for over 20 years…and each one had it’s share of lawsuits, fingerpointing, name calling and legal maneuvers. That’s how the business works…like it or not.
You should not worry about the ruination of other Westside businesses…the money spent at this casino has been going to the other casinos in the Phoenix area for years. The Westside should actually be able to recapture dollars spent with the other casinos and Westside non profits will benefit from the casino grant program.
I would encourage those who are so opposed to this development without actually knowing much about it to go there and observe how the business is conducted or, at the very least, do some internet research. You will not be required to spend any money!
While Joyce and I tend to disagree on the economic benefits of this development, we both share information with each other we have researched and try our best to educate ourselves on the casino industry. We just philosophically disagree…but our differences are based on our interpretations of studies and research…not just on uninformed opinions.
I think a healthy debate is fun and I thank Joyce again for providing a forum for us to express our views.
Please sir, to say the shopping and entertainment, golf etc is in the same hemisphere as to what is being offered in Scottsdale is foolish. Scottsdale recovers some of the revenue it loses to the reservation is made up when most of the people staying in those hotels shop in many of the Scottsdale businesses. The hotel/casino will increase some area revenue, but I am making an educated guess most staying the casino hotel will spend most of their money in other valley cities. Arrowhead mall is nice, but I dont think that people visiting will choose that mall over Fashion Sq., Keirland and many other east side attractions.
I enjoy Westgate before and after events. Nothing is unique or special however. Please dont try to say that Westgates restaurants and bars will not take a hit when the casino is fully operational.
So, because many west siders have been going to other valley casinos, they will now be able to use the new one that is closer. So, how do area businesses do any better? All the people are doing is donating from one tribe to another? So how does it help the area with people spending their money at a west side casino over an east side one? You really think the lure a casino has with its buffets, food deals to draw people in will not have an effect on area restaurants? You really think the entertainment a casino will have will not take away from area bars?
You used the term “in general” when referring to other area’s. That doesnt guarantee the same thing in the west valley that your stats show in other areas. You may have all the stats to make a point, but the reality is in this situation, they dont pass the eye or smell test.
Even facts cannot change a mind that is already made up. I respect your opinion, but you are badly misinformed. It might just be simpler for you to say you are opposed to gaming…and leave it at that. The answers to all your questions and concerns are available by doing some simple Internet searches on gaming if you would bother to do so.
Mr Renehart, I can assure you I am far from anti gaming. I visit often Wild Horse Pass and Talking Stick. I enjoy the food, the concerts, the entertainment in the bars and do gamble a little. I believe I am pretty well versed on the valley and things that go on and how they work. When I choose to eat or see a concert at either of those casino’s, its money I am not spending that another community would receive taxes on.
You can tout all the stats you want, in this case you can throw most of them out the window. The west valley doesnt have the dynamics around it to absorb the re-distrabution of entertainment money from the local citizens. Yes, many west siders can now travel close to home to enjoy all the benefits of a casino,. Thats money from one casino to another. Its not new money to the area. A casino will draw from others on the westside that choose not to travel to one of the other casinos. The money they spend, will be entertainment dollars that would have gone somewhere else.
Sorry sir. You have the right to your opinion based on some well selected facts that frankly dont apply to this casino and area.
I don’t want to express an opinion, Joyce, but I do have one question. You wrote:
“…In addition the TO have only bingo slot machines (Class II) on site as the state has not approved Class III gaming at the facility….”
My question:
Only BINGO slot machines? Do they not have other slots such as the Bar Bar Bar or 777 slots?
As a matter of fact , I don’t even know what a Bingo slot machine is.
Seems to me they would have a wider selection of machines for the people to lose their $$$… 🙂
I haven’t been inside a casino in years – here in AZ or Las Vegas – so I was just wondering about the slots at the Desert Diamond.
DiNaslo, The State of Arizona’s Gaming Department has not issued a Class III gaming license to the TO for this casino. It is, in fact, the reason the TO and the State are in court. Until the legal issues are resolved the TO will not get a Class III license and be able to have other machines or table gaming.
Joyce…
I guess I didn’t make myself clear when I asked about the types of slot machines the Casino had.
I understand the difference between Class II and Class III.
Out of curiosity I went to the Yelp website last night, and one of the posters wrote that there were 6 – only 6 – Poker slots in the bar area.
So I guess there are other types of slot machines on the floor other than Bingo.
I doubt seriously that the gamblers would want to go to the Desert Diamond if the only slots available to them are Bingo – not everybody plays Bingo.
People like to play those 777 and BarBarBar machines, too.
Some of the people are pretty upset that they don’t have a liquor license as yet, either.
Drinking & gambling go hand in hand, I guess.
It appears the TO jumped the gun on opening their Casino; I wonder if this negative public reaction is going to affect it down the road – or if the die-hard gamblers will go there in spite of all it’s shortcomings.
I suppose that remains to be seen.
I have another question for you:
Have you actually been inside the Desert Diamond Casino to check it out – or do you have no interest in doing so?
In view of the fact that I don’t plan to go there any time soon, I guess my interest and questions are really a moot point; I’d rather spend my money on fun stuff like going out to lunch and/or dinner! 🙂
DiNaslo
DiNasio, No matter what gaming format are on the machines they pay out differently than Class III machines. A friend sent me an article explaining Class II machines. Here is an excerpt: “There are other ways to go about it, including Class II games in some Native American casinos. There, the game being played is really electronic bingo, with numbers being drawn for whole banks — or multiple banks — of games through a central processor. Bingo numbers are then translated into slot reel combinations or video poker hands. You can watch numbers being generated within a small bingo display on the machine, but the large full-screen display is devoted to spinning reels or video icons.”
From what I understand, with Bingo slot machines you are playing against everyone else who is playing Bingo at the same time. As for visiting the casino, no, I have not nor do I expect to.
Mr Jerome : Nothing I can say will change your mind. I don’t know what credentials you bring to support your opinion but you are obviously an expert, so you may have the last word. FYI – I did spent 4 years doing market research on this casino, so I do know what I am talking about. And, the Phoenix market could support several more casinos, if they were not tribal ones. It’s time the state legalized commercial gaming and took away the monopoly from the tribes.